Liberty or Death
The private property-free market branch of libertarianism had a real chance to assert itself and explain it's theoretical underpinnings yesterday but succumbed to Wolf Blitzer and the American Spectacle. I would have welcomed this exposition and thought Rand Paul would be the one to pursue it but alas, he caved under intense liberal scrutiny and power politics.
By questioning (temporarily) the title 2 part of the Civil Rights Act, the Prodigal Son opened the closet door wherein Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, William Buckley and the whole Chicago Gang lurk, but instead the conversation turned predictably to "couched racism" and lunch counters, that place where Martin Luther King Jr. was stuck before he gained a deeper understanding of how capitalism works.
When law was used to force culture and social convention to "change", liberal America cheered and congratulated itself. But the States rights issues never went away and the private property issues never went away. Today the Black community is ravaged by incarceration, poverty,decimated inner cities and violence despite the right to shop at Wal Mart or vote for some representative like Charley Wrangle. The private property basis of tyranny and racism were both conveniently ignored and Americans settled for a kinder, gentler slave owner.
Tonight there is a meeting of a new group formed to counter the local Tea Party whose mission is "promoting democracy through civil discourse". They will focus on the racist, xenophobic and seditious aspects of the extreme wing but ignore the discussion on Libertarianism and private property rights which animates the majority because as liberals, they promote these same capitalist principles, only regulated by government oversight. I might ask them, to paraphrase Sarah Palin, Hows That Workin Out For Ya?
posted by troutsky @ 7:06 AM
50 comments
50 Comments:
Quit whining, Trout, you get to vote for the Goldman Sachs toadie to manage the "recovery". Just ask Beak, choice is good and we've got plenty.
The free marketeers and the Chicago crew thought it was necessary to own government. That's the kind of ownership that brigs prosperity.
And meanwhile, parts of America look like Beirut and the investment sure ain't going there.
I don't know how to move ahead without an authoritarian government and that's what gives me pause.
Maybe I'm an anarchist at heart. I just don't know. So Rand Paul wants us back in the days of segregated lunch counters. And any cream puff right of center pol like Obama can crush that kind of stupidity and we are stuck.
I just don't know.
http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2010-05-20-newsitem-en.html
An article and site you may enjoy, trout.
Beak, you should check it out also.
Interesting Ducky, as usual. You do know your way around those internets!
Pehe makes two astounding pronouncements: global capitalism has increased democracy and the worker as such is disappearing. These make him hard to take seriously. Also, Marxism and communism are conflated, used interchangeably. Language must be precise, as difficult as that is.
I don't think Paul is nostalgic for racial segregation. I believe his point is similar to those signs you see in businesses" We reserve the right to refuse service to ( insert whatever)
In other words, capitalist freedom is his cause, like Obama or Goldman-Sachs.
Yeah, the conflation of Marxism and Communism always gets me. I look at Marxism as first and foremost a critique of capitalism (right Beak)?
As for the disappearance of a working class, in the West at least, I do think it's been farmed out and what's left is too busy trying to stay above water that it is more prone to look to the Baggers than any upheava of the government.
Marxism is a form of mental illness.
It is both a moral and mental defect.
It is quite lucrative for its adherents who get jobs in higher ed and media companies with no real aptitude.
Commies frequently give people choice B after creating neoplantations. It is the goal of the abomination from MN to have his own concentration camp. Perhaps he can hire LWB to run it like the real Che hired his role model convicted sex offender and commie Herman Marks.
Funny line by the Spleen. "Che didn't use rubber bullets". No he used real bullets most often execution style and killed women and teens.
Commies should follow the role model of Jim Jones.
Troutsky: Good luck to the group that wants civil discourse with the tea bag group. In St.Louis they beat up a black minister, who has had two surgeries because of his beating. They peddle a video claiming SEIU "goons" attacked them. The funny part is that the video shows no teabagger got hurt. The next day a teabagger shows up in a wheelchair, with dressings around body parts not mentioned in his testimony.
Why have discourse with a group opposed to federally mandated overtime?
The civil rights movement was beheaded, with the assassinations of Malcolm X and MLK. They were replaced by hack Democratic Party activists.
Beak: The Cuban government had to execute the counterrevolutionaries, to prevent the masses from killing more people.
1)Explain why the Cuban Communist Party supported Batista?
2) Why did Castro give government positions to capitalists?
3) Why did the Cuban Communist Party oppose nationalizing the economy?
Ducky: The US is the only industrialized country without a labor party. In the UK, post election the labor party is in growth spurt.
Ren is this the latest line that the death cult provides you with. We killed people for their own good to saves lives. That is funny except when Pinochet says it this may be factual. Of your your brothers in arms, Nazis ( think LWB/John Brown),have been known to state if we did not kill dem Jooooos they would have killed us.
The spin, fables and lies that you are capable of is amazing. You have never once in your wasted life demonstrated any original thought or any redeeming social qualities.
Just make sure if any of your friends like the folks at Laraza pick up the gun you run for your life to Caracas. The American people are fed up with you and your kind. Given the right provocation the people will rise up, just not in the way your kind ever imagined.
Sorry, but your cartoon attempts to rationalize the criminal regime
in Havana are wasted. FYI When Castro was sending mercenaries to
brutalize Ethiopians where were you? Try talking to Cubans who have served in Africa and listen to their descriptions of war crimes committed against civilians.
You need to make sure you are with Hugo when the wind shifts. I am waiting for the Colombians to tire and invade.
Beak, you seem to have ducked all of Ren's questions.
Why is it that you revert to your straw man gibberish every time you are confronted with something that may require you to widen your narrow perspective?
Ducky
I am not bound by the commie playbook. What happened in Cuba was just another crime of Marxism. While the people at La Cabana were being killed without trials folks like yourself denied, lied and spun.
You use the strawman bit every time
that the failures of Marx grow to obvious.
Of course you lack the courage to surrender your citizenship and live
in one of these socialist lobotomy
states. Of course when people who lived there tell you that you are full of shit, you launch into your
own tirades.
Let Commies join Larazza and start
the treason today. The reaction of the American people will be swift
and decisive.
Beak, troutsky has tried to instruct not to conflate Communism and Marxism. Haven't you read the thread?
What playbook?
Ducky
History has passed its judgment on Marx. Just as Nazism is forever tied to Auschwitz. Communism is forever tied to Stalin, Mao, gulags, Killing Fields and terrorism. Nor can you absolve Marx for the crimes against humanity of his followers.
In essence Communists and Anarchists do not have a right to exist. They are parasites on the human condition. We are improved as a society by placing them in North Korea and letting typical Marxist malfeasance do the rest.
The playbook is the standard party lines given to commies at their cell meetings. Sorry, but there is no defending the Castro regime. Batista is gone 50 years and the crimes of the Castro regime are beyond excuses and rationalizations.
As far as I am concerned, Libertarianism is a form of anarchism. It's followers just don't realize this or want to call it that. While some anarchists are thoughtful, libertarians generally live in a dreamworld in which the facts of history don't exist or don't matter.
See: http://iamyouasheisme.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/free-will-and-all-that-2/
Lichanos, I think it's more severe.
In their extreme individualist fetishism they effectively deny not only state but any community not based in trade. It's a pretty bleak image
You guys are a bunch of circus freaks. Libertarians have nothing to do with Anarchists. The greatest imbecile on the web is the incoherent
Larry Gambone.
Libertarians, do not deny the state
unless they are one of the rare anarcho libertarians. Commie circus freaks are totalitarian statist slavers and have an have a warped perspective.
As far as not knowing history any look at the writing of Che Bob or Ren shows complete ignorance of actual history. Never waste time reading anything written by commies
as it is worthless.
Beak, lichanos has an interesting snip on Marx at his site.
Give it a look.
You guys are a bunch of circus freaks....Libertarians have nothing to do with Anarchists ... Libertarians, do not deny the state
unless they are one of the rare anarcho libertarians.
I have a thick skin, and I don't care about being insulted by vulgarians on the Web, but please try and make some sense while you're getting my attention.
First you deny the libertarian-anarchist connection, then you admit it, but say it's rare. This is a question for historians and others who care to think about the facts. In my experience, many libertarians have anarchist tendencies, and some of them are extreme.
Maybe you associate the word anarchist with Sacco and Vanzetti, and other socialists, but anarchism cuts across the political spectrum.
My point was that libertarians have a perspective that is at least as warped as the commmunists'. The latter sees the state as the solution to everything, and has no problem with totalitarianism. The former sees the state as the root of ALL evil and are blind to its positive aspects. Moreover, they are in a dreamworld regarding the alternatives.
Like many Republicans, libertarians are happy to take the benefits of the state while calling for its destruction or severe restriction. I believe Rand Paul benefits mightily from Medicare and Medicaid - he's an opthamalogist, and is on record in favor of them.
Just for Beak although others will find it interesting. Me, I'm a shameless Veblen fan.
Does Beak appreciate us trying to give him basic literacy or are we still going to be packed of to North Korea?
Ducky
The only ones that need to get denaturalized and deported are Ren and Che Sponge Bob. Gambone is in Canada otherwise he would be a great candidate.
As you have never received free travel or met with government officials of a Narcoterrorist state you are just merely a kook. Troutsky gets a pass because of his low IQ. He is merely a follower and cannon fodder for the more evil types.
Besides your flat earth history
where the worlds greatest colonialists are the planets victims and lack of economic literacy proves my point.
Onto Lichanos who is a lesser sort who hasn't risen to be worthy of a one way ticket to North Korea.
Liberterians come in a few shades and with the rare exception of some fools who follow the imbecile Murray Rothbard they have nothing to do with anarchists. The anarcho libertarians are a small fringe group.
Mainstream Libertarians want Limited Government. They want to reduce the nanny state, not to eliminate government. The majority
of their critique is "is this the task of government". This is actually a healthy question for societies to ask to avoid tyranny like those practiced in Cuba, North Korea and Syria.
Their history is not beholden to an infantile worldview based on fomenting perpetual revolution. Any information published by communists is worthless.
Anarchists serve basically as flunkies for communists. Like Larry Gambone they make common cause with Commies again and again and get killed by Commies at a later date. Unlike lab rats anarchists are not capable of learning or higher thought.
Communism is forever tied to Stalin, Mao, gulags, Killing Fields and terrorism. Nor can you absolve Marx for the crimes against humanity of his followers.
--------------
Come on Beak, we went to great effort to try to teach you not to conflate Marx and communism.
Ducky just as you can not remove Nazism from the Holocaust, you can not absolve Marx from the crimes of his followers. Nor is this merely an isolated occurrence.
Marx is judged by the actions of his followers. Every bad idea has its apologists. There were those who thought slavery was peachy. Marxists merely dress themselves up as the neoslavers and the workers as domestic animals to be milked and slaughtered by Che Bob types according to party needs.
Marxism is a moral and mental defect. Its followers are not capable of original thought or higher forms of thinking. They walk lock step like lemmings repeating absurd party lines they know are lies "Rosenbergs are innocent". After this has been proven a lie "they had a different definition of patriotism".
Marxists should be housed in institution settings such as insane asylums or prisons. Placing Che Bob and Ren in North Korea allows them to flourish in both a prison and insane asylum at the same time.
Ducky: Come on Beak, we went to great effort to try to teach you not to conflate Marx and communism.
He's a retard.
Ren
You are a slaver and a promoter of genocide. The classic quote was the one you gave PT. "Che didn't use rubber bullets". No he used real ones and many times his prisoners were executed.
As a slaver and a person at least beholden to a narcoterrorist regime
you are quite the comic. Are the butchers just the new kulaks. How much property will the madman steal next. Has anyone asked the actual workers if they like this.
The comedy act never stops.
So did you order the harassment of Junglemom or was it on orders from Caracas? I do not expect honest answers from the slave of the crack addict.
The majority of their critique is "is this the task of government". This is actually a healthy question for societies to ask ...
I agree, this is certainly a VERY important question to ask. Perhaps it is the most important question. In a sense, you could say it is at the root of all the ranting that goes on here...
Having said that, your rejoinder gets us nowhere because, you may be surprised to learn, I ask the same question. I just get a different answer. So, it's not the question that's so important, but the various answers that are given.
The traditional libertarian view is far too limited to be of much use in the modern world of super industrial states. And there's no denying that that's what we are in - they won't go away just by snapping our fingers. Unless, maybe, there's a violent worldwide revolution...Want that? To argue otherwise is to close one's eyes to reality, or simply to advance, or purpose or unwittingly, the perpetuation of power in the hands of those who hold most of it now.
...you can not absolve Marx from the crimes of his followers.
Despite my admiration for Marx as a thinker and an historian, I think this is reasonable. At least as reasonable as any figure can be held to account for what his professed followers do. Marx developed the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and it is from that the much of communism's sorry history flows...
Exactly lichanos, Marx was a very god economist and a lousy revolutionary.
But that is not something that gets considered.
Communism failed, that's that, out with all leftist thought and let's have Rudy Giuliani keep us safe from the squeegee men and show us the wisdom of pure "private market solutions" because those never fail.
Dialogue is virtually impossible.
Ducky
You should stick with Owens views on Marx. Owen might have been a dreamer, but he knew evil when he saw it.
Marxism is more fundamentalist and dogmatic than the folks at the 700 Club. Wind up Ren or Che Bob and you will get a whole string of Revolution, side with any enemy of America and promotion of populist antisemitism with codewords. No original thought punctuated by an infantile attachment to a long dead
mendicant.
When one deals with Communists it is like living in a Dawn of the Dead Film. The Zombies keep rising from the dead long after history has pronounced its verdict.
They go from country to country and play this sick game that each new savior of Communism is going to get it right. It was apparent what Chavez was years ago and his fifth column tries to play the smoke and mirrors game.
No doubt the American apologist will repeat this game again and again when the crimes of Chavez become too obvious. Even the class genocide clown tries the classic
"Che didn't use rubber bullets". No he used real ones and executed people without trials and was more of a circus clown than revolutionary.
Troutsky, I may disagree with you about Paul.
Often extremists will hide behind the statement that "personally I would never do it". They would always HAVE BEEN in the front of any fight for civil rights.
What they depend on is their base doing the dirty work but they will warn that base in no uncertain terms while assuring them that their "freedom" to act uncivilized will never be hindered.
Really abysmal
Ducky: No matter what question you ask Beakerkin, he won't be bound by logic and history.
Yeah ren, he's kind of a test case.
I wonder if the whole of the far right is that close minded.
Duncy
Unlike commie mendicants my knowledge of history is unburdened by infantile attachments to a genocidal cult.
Unlike lab rats commies are incapable of learning.
Beak, your knowledge of history is unburdened by knowledge.
Duncy
As a communist you know nothing about history, economics and humanity. All you do is repeat the party line.
Viva stupidity!!!! All Hail the crack addict who is directing FARC and stealing property!!!!
"Marx is judged by the actions of his followers. "
And Jesus is responsible for the Inquisition, the witch hunts, murder of the Cathars, the Holocaust etc?
Larry Gambone
As an anarchist you are devoid of all
knowledge and are only slightly useful as a comedic prop.
The Holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity. Real Nazis were mostly secular and there are plenty of anti Christian references in the writings of Nazis. Were you not am imbecile and freak I would not have impart
information special ed style.
As a moron you are more apt to be killed by Che Bob or Ren once they
consolidate power. Unlike lab rats
anarchists are not capable of learning or higher thought.
Actually if you are interested in
learning about the impact of Christianity on what we call Western Civilization you could try to read the Great Divide by Professor Alvin Schmidt. As the book does not have pictures and is written above a fifth grade reading
level it may be beyond your limited
ability to grasp.
Try reading the book and look at the impact of Christianity on society. Ironically the fact that an imbecile like yourself is not confined to a mental health facility or prison is part of the bounty of Western Civ.
As stated before Christians build schools, hospitals, orphanages and serve the needy. Marxists build piles of dead,prisons and create starvation and misery.
Now kindly resume serving as the idiot of whatever village you are
ensconced in.
Attempting to absolve Marx from the crimes committed by his followers is the same as Holocaust
Denial.
"The Holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity.
And anti-Semitism just came out of the air?
Try this on for sizehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
Gamboner
First of all I find it interesting that you are concerned about hatred of Joooooos. If you ask most Joooos where the antisemitism comes from it is from the far left. As a Jooo I seldom even encounter it from Muslim Americans outside of a gulag in higher ed. In the Gulags of higher ed, they only hire fellow lefties.
Classical Antisemitism is a thing of the past for most churches. The rare cases one will find this malady is in Churches preaching "liberation theology". The latter is an entryist scam by commies to
subvert churches.
As a frothing antisemite, your interest in the charge amuses me.
Perhaps you should delve into the works of your classical French Anarchist Imbeciles or Marx and look for yourself.
Those who follow the actual teachings of Christ grasp that his
message is the fulfillment of the Judaic prophecies.
As far as Nazis go, this blog and Ren's are linked to an actual Nazi whose posts are frequently picked up by Stormfront. Moreover the Psuedostine Telegraph features the work of David Duke.
Nice try Gambone, but as an anarchist you are only useful as a comedic prop.
Beak, do you have an iPod or similar device?
There's no excuse for being so ignorant and completely out of touch with even the rudiments of an education with so much content online.
I'd be happy to recommend some free podcasts or some lectures on Marxism, also free, on iTunes.
If you educate yourself you won't be so defensive and actual dialog and learning would be possible. Think how you'd stand out from your online friends.
Ducky
One does not learn anything from death cultists whose history is steeped with deception and the abuse of my people. In fact deception is a key element of the death cult.
As you are a film head, try the movie Jurassic Bolsheviks. History pronounced its verdict on the sons of treason, but like poorly behaved zombies in a grade B horror
film they refuse to lie in the coffin.
Yet another example of the disaster
of Marx is being played out in the narco terrorist state ruled by the crack addict. How much more evidence do the sons of treason and
death need that the system doesn't
work.
It is really quite simple, add a touch of Marx and people suffer and die. Famines in nations that were food exporters. Cuba was on a par with Spain in terms of GDP and now we are inching next to Haiti.
No doubt the sons of genocide will
pick another savior of Marxism again and again until we are all dead.
Communists should be in mental hospitals or prisons according to deeds. They need to join Hugo live the life they think is peachy, lest they be branded Bullshit Bolsheviks.
Beakerkin:
Ducky asked you what does Stalinism have to do with real Marxism? The answer is nothing.
Very interesting that rightists have a method, where they throw out one statistic in no context, and call it analysis.
Let us start with, why is the GDP of Spain in 1959, a large European country. equal to that of a small island in Caribbean? The answer is due to political isolation or autarky. You managed to make a good argument as to why the embargo hurt Cuba. No country can have real growth in isolation.
Funny you didn't bring up India and China, to compare GDP.
Unlike commie mendicants my knowledge of history is unburdened by infantile attachments to a genocidal cult.
Oh ya, I thought you were a Zionist Beakinyahu. Same company different set of crimes.
Where's trout, these days?
Right on schedule Ren and Troutsky's
house Nazi appears. They do not see anything wrong with Nazis who are frequently cited by Stormfront.
Lest you think my reaction to this individual is unique Sonia, CB, Jams and even Graeme the Marijuana Marxists friend Aaron object to this style of Nazism.
Thank you little Adolph for proving my point.
Renegade Testicle
Obviously you have flunked economic as a prerequisite for your imbecilic dogmatic faith in Marxism. Nationalizing (theft) companies under competent management and replacing them with
brain impaired death cultists killed the economy. Cuba also could trade with the rest of the planet and found sufficient resources to pay mercenaries, to direct terror and host ordinary criminals like convicted cop killer Joanne Chesimard.
Add a touch of Marx and the only thing that happens is human misery.
We are not going to play the smoke and mirror game with fundamentalist dogmatic cultists.
One can not remove the Holocaust from any discussion of Nazism. Similarly all discussions of Marxism start with Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengistu, Castro, Kim Jong "Mentally" Ill, Jim Jones, Bill Ayers, the Red Army Criminals, the Black Panther Criminals and your master Hugo "the narco terrorist crack addict"
Chavez. Any attempt to absolve Marx for a partial list of the crimes of his followers is akin to Holocaust denial.
Beakerkin: Are you saying that a tropical island like Cuba, with its limited resources and small population, can have an equal GDP with modern, industrialized Spain, if it was capitalist? That is what you are saying. I would reply that you belong in the looney bin to believe something like that. It's called magical thinking. Seriously it's retarded comparing a European Union country to a small tropical island.
Spain is no longer an isolated country, with a peasant majority. It overcame the effects of the Civil War and its loss of colonies.
Similarly all discussions of Marxism start with Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengistu, Castro, Kim Jong "Mentally" Ill, Jim Jones, Bill Ayers, the Red Army Criminals, the Black Panther Criminals and your master Hugo "the narco terrorist crack addict"
All discussions of Marxism start with Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky.
Why are you ducking talking about GDP between China and India?
You better think of some serious name calling, because you can't answer the political questions. You failed logic class.
Wrong Ren
All discussion of Marx start with the dead created by his followers.
The magnitude of the crimes against humanity is so great that all discussions about Marx starts and ends with those crimes.
You can spin your Marxist failure anyway you wish. Cuba at the time of Batista had a GDP that was on a par with Spain. It is now a joke and not far away from Haiti before the earthquake. Excuses about Islands and boycotts are just more spin from death cult.
Point blank, why are you still in the USA? It is very easy for you to join Hugo. Merely walk into the Embassy in Caracas and renounce your citizenship. You won't because you are a Bullshit Bolshevik.
You may be right, Beak. The casino income was large.
Of course most of the island lived in poverty worse than what exists now but I don't expect you to do any complex thinking.
There wasn't any industry or middle class (or working class for that matter) and today the entire Caribbean basin is underdeveloped and America has not played a positive role. Look at Haiti, without the suffering of Haitian slaves in colonial times we would have lost the Revolution and how did we repay them?
Ducky: Isn't it amazing how rightists throw out numbers, without explanation like comparing Spain to Cuba's GDP? I can't live that down.
Beakerkin actually claimed Cuba should have a GDP, equal to modern Spain. In another words he believes comparing the GDP of modern Spain, a European Union country, to a small tropical island is legitimate. Yet he refuses to discuss the GDP of India vs China.
I concede Cuba will never the GDP of a European Union country. I don't know any small tropical island that can.
Interesting that last month, the only job growth was in the state sector in the US.
It's the right's way of handling the dialectic, ren.
They fear change so they set up a series of straw issues.
Ducky
More lies and spin from Commies. In fact Spain and Cuba had similar GDP
per person. Add Marxist malfeasance
and you get a disaster.
Excuses don't cut it after 50 years of oppression of the Cuban people by Commies.
So are you advocating Spanish fascism, Beak? Did fascism do anything for the Spanish GDP? You were a big fan of Franco and his support for the Nazis?
Probably.
Really, Beak, you aren't even knocking on the door. Do you have any facts, we might be interested.
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