Power of Symbols
A few years ago I was explaining to an acquaintance the power of myth in shaping ideology, using as an example the myth that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spit on by protesters. To my great surprise,this man said that he, in fact, WAS spit on. I asked where and he told me "At the San Francisco airport".
Returning soldiers never landed at SF International( maybe he wasn't "just returning"?) and no such incident anywhere has ever been documented but I suspect this man "believed" his myth/story to be true. The right wing propaganda machine introduced this prototypical "happening" to demonstrate the hateful nature of peace movement protesters and the entire "counter-culture" and by association the Left.They were able to disseminate the lie effectively throughout the culture ( NY Times, major networks, movies, texts, all gobbled it up) until this traumatized man I spoke to internalized it into his own experience, helping him justify his behavior and subsequent ideology.
This is why the recent Citizens United ( love that title!) Supreme Court case is in my opinion a red herring. It doesn't matter if a Corporation spends a billion dollars on a political campaign. Just as it doesn't matter if lobbyists deliver box loads of cash to Senate offices. These are just diversions so we can argue about quid pro quo and corruption and special interests or free speech. We can know it is corrupt YET STILL believe it is legitimate. All of that trivia is made superfluous by the fact that on a much grander scale than the "spit incident", citizens have internalized the ideology that will bring us a "Green Economy", "Cap and Trade", oil wars or nuclear reactors. Where does the trauma spring from that facilitates this identification with ones oppressor?
I would argue , any number of places,on both the personal and societal levels.How many fiercely defend the free market as they are evicted from their home?
One of the worst traumas is being lied to by someone you trusted. Two generations are having to accept the fact that the racial lie they were told (white superiority) turned them into victims, both black and white , to be exploited by the ruling class. Then whites had to discover they weren't superior to Asians (gooks) by being defeated in a war. A whole generation was raised being told they were only minutes from annihilation by the Red Menace ( we practiced getting under our desks and digging bomb shelters) and that the U.S. was the guardian of World Freedom. People react to the discovery they have been lied to in different ways, the trauma is processed in different ways. Some cling to the old symbols ( Obama tried to express this and struck a nerve), some are able to move on.But there is a great deal of power invested in maintaining many of those old symbols as manipulative tools and they can't be argued or debated away easily.
This doesn't mean resistance is futile. I don't mean to describe an invincible, Matrix like system because we see push back every day,in lots of different ways. The trauma can be assuaged and the meme defeated. I just don't think the constitutional or campaign finance reform battles are the place to put much energy.Or ethics rules for "honorable" prostitutes.
This is basic "false consciousness" 101, on symbols, trauma and mis-recognition, and there is a much deeper layer to confront.
posted by troutsky @ 3:52 PM
43 comments
43 Comments:
I fear that it's going to have to get worse before folks admit that the platitudes don't work.
There was enough excess savings overseas to finance our spending spree and the world could finance our debt. Leverage looked like a perpetual motion machine and going into deep debt "created jobs" for a little while.
It's going to have to crash before they learn.
Hey, over here at the Exchange, more free chips so we can manage a recovery!
Or we can have Beak take us back to the good old days of welfare Cadillacs and Saint Ronnie Raygun talking about all those inner city folks he saw buying booze with their food stamps.
Or maybe, as Beak says, they had a diet of high quality produce, after all,"catchup is a vegetable". Remember that from the man who singlehandedly cemented a lot of this crap into the national psyche?
Ignore the article, just the left wing media. Now that little cliche is a symbol of great power.
I think you're correct about the Citizens united issue. It just made public, what was private. The liberals response was swift. They hate the excesses made too public.
I think "image" is neutral. The right uses it more consciously. Their images are stronger, because they are more comfortable being mean spirited and dishonest.
The rights extreme hatred for Obama, who is a political moderate and a milktoast compromiser, can only be explained as racist. His policies are close to Bush's on important things.
I'm not so sure the right's reaction is predominately racist, Rem. No doubt at all that there is an element that isn't going to take orders from a ------.
But I don't think they are the driving force. The Democratic "brand" (I prefer that word to symbol) has become synonymous with "socialist" on the indoctrinated right.
The man is seriously considered a Marxist by many of these folks, ask Beak.
You really have to come back to earth if you expect to convince anyone of anything.
The incident with this soldier is strange. Did he invent his "memory?" Quite possibly. My children used to do so, adults do too for a variety of reasons. It is not a phenomenon unique to political thinking. Using it as an example of some grand process is pretty weak reasoning.
It's true that the "meme" as you call it, has been picked up and repeated, for reasons that we can all, with more or less validity, speculate about. But memes get picked up all the time. Why is this any different than the thousands of other "urban myths" that proliferate endlessly? Because it is directed from above by THEM?
How many fiercely defend the free market as they are evicted from their home?
...or when they are laid off from their jobs, for that matter? Yes, very strange, but people believe all sorts of things that would seem to be contrary to their interests. One reason is that they are committed to other ideas that they think make sense of their world. Again, not a startling revelation, especially to any student of religion and its history.
All False Consciousness to you, I guess, but how then can one ever pierce it? You are so convinced that it is "orchestrated", a very much over simplified view, that your very call for dissent contradicts your theory. Unless, of course, only the enlightened vanguard possesses the intellectual wherewithal to oppose THEM.
I think you have to start by having more respect for facts than you have for your favored ideology.
For example:
A whole generation was raised being told they were only minutes from annihilation by the Red Menace
This was quite true. Not for the reasons offered, perhaps, but true nonetheless. Red Menace = USSR. Of course, over there, they said the same about us. It was true too. Weren't you worried - I was!
I really don't understand your assertion about the "racial lie." Whites were told they were superior to blacks, and they got the privileges to go with it. But maybe you meant only that they were fooled into thinking that Asians in sandals couldn't beat them in a war. Either way, I don't get your argument.
Think about this notion of "false consciousness" and what it entails intellectually. How can you possibly recognize it or critique it? How can it exist - a person is conscious: this is not a logical proposition - it's a simple fact. If it's false, he's dead or in a coma. How can you possibly define it in a way that doesn't undermine your very ability to make the distinction.
You're like the radical skeptics who claim that human knowledge is impossible, and there is no certainty ever because the senses err and our minds are fallible. Oh...how do you know that's true?
False consciousness is just another secular theological notion with Marxist critique standing in for divine grace.
Troutsky
Soldiers who returned from Vietnam were abused by protesters. You are forgetting that this did not only occur in airports.
I also clearly remember as a very young child my flag being stolen by a hippie and burned. Yes peaceful hippie drug addicts who probably went years between baths stole a flag from a toddler.
I also remember the reaction of my family to the shootings at Kent State. People were upset more protesters weren't shot. You can see these reactions in the NYT documentary on the subject.
As I grew up I needed little introduction to the evils of Commies. My grandfather and Uncle fought against the commies in 1920.
My grandparents were clearly familiar with the evils.
Planned starvation, treason, gulags, killing fields and assorted
other crimes against humanity are very real.
Glad the Duck who is an apologist for regimes that purposely starve their own citizens brings up Reagan. Yes people on food stamps did by alcohol and abuse the program. Ketchup is actually a luxury item that people in Communist countries can't get along with produce.
That great Conservative Bill "I smoked but never inhaled" passed welfare reform. The reforms were widely popular with the American people.
Alas the bird brain has not learned
the problems are worse in the so called enlightened EU. Logic is not associated with Marxists. Crimes against humanity and economic malfeasance are associated with Marxists.
"Red Menace = USSR. Of course, over there, they said the same about us. It was true too. Weren't you worried - I was!"
My wife told me that they had been told that the evil people in the USA wanted to take over USSR and make all of them our slaves.
1. All persons are conscious...
2. This individual there is a person...
3. Therefore, this individual is conscious...
Is that what you mean Lichanos?
Is my above statement a 'fact' Lichanos or a proposition?
Ducky, Reagan was a loveable killer but the one that still gets me was re-electing Richard Nixon! that was one terrifying bastard.
Ren, "image" might be neutral but power isn't. One side can leverage it much more effectively.
Lichanos: Back to earth? This from the medieval architecture and cartoon guy?
"Because it is directed from above by THEM?" Yes. No actually, I'm making a structural critique, the meme/symbol/ myth/ brand is supported systemically by those it advantages. This is simple marketing No Logo stuff elevated to serve capital.
Near annihilation was indeed a "fact" (although it didn't necessarily need to be), making my point about trauma. I was traumatized, were you?
The racial thing was that discovering a lie told by a trusted source can be traumatic. This could be bullshit pop-psych but I thought I would test it.
As for false consciousness, as I said that was just the intro. Soon will be the Grand Explanation.( im working on it feverishly)Be patient.
Kultur
You are proof that those who are comatose post.
What Lichanos said was correct. This is another aspect of the religious roots of Marxism. Thus when actual workers reject Marx they obviously are too ignorant to know what is in their own best interests. They need someone like Che Bob to think for them.
Sorry, but the historical record
speaks loudly and clearly.
Beak- your mother should have aborted you!
This comment has been removed by the author.
Soldiers who returned from Vietnam were abused by protesters. You are forgetting that this did not only occur in airports.
----------------------
Actually, Beak, you're full of shit. Demonstrators were demonstrating against the war, not the vets.
If anyone abused the vets, it was the Veteran's Administration.
Now toddle off and listen to hate radio and get a few more talking points.
I wonder how many documented cases of abuse of veterans there are.
I wonder about people who wish that more protesters at Kent State had been shot. Is it a capital crime to protest foreign policy in the USA?
Lichanos: Back to earth? This from the medieval architecture and cartoon guy?
I'm assuming this is a weak joke.
I'm not sure I was traumatized, but I was very perturbed by the nuclear arms race. Like the rest of it, I managed to deal with it.
My wife told me that they had been told that ...the USA wanted to take over USSR and make ... them our slaves.
Each side had its propaganda and stood ready at the doomsday button. Looked at dispassionately, by people like Kennan (a conservative in most things) the USSR had more substantive reasons to fear an act of nuclear aggression from the West. It had been threatened and advocated, publicly, by many, from Bertrand Russell to Patton. There were USSR hawks who wished the same for the USA, but publicly, they followed the peace line. Americans are often so optimistic about the realities of warfare.
Kultur: Is my above statement a 'fact' Lichanos or a proposition?
Well it's a syllogism, and not one I would propose, though I'm not ready to reject it. You can argue that 'person' entails 'conscious' making it bad logic. The logical link between individual and person is either unclear, or tautological. The conclusion, therefore, is unproven, although reasonable. I would go about it in a totally different, less deductive manner.
I don't think Americans were traumatized by Vietname - and I agree they were in a sense - because of the racial factor, but because we LOST! Period! The only war we'd ever lost had been one-half loosing to the other in the Civil War, and that certainly did a number on Southern Culture.
"I also clearly remember as a very young child my flag being stolen by a hippie and burned."
Stupid hippies never do anything right. He shoulda wrapped you in it first.
C. W. be nice. Young Beak was clearly traumatized and it effected the center of his brain that recognizes truth and fantasy.
I will deal with the comments in order of class from highest to lowest
Lichanos
The Constituion guarantees freedom of peaceful protest. America was fed up by the unlawful conduct of the protesters including vandalizing property, abusing veterans and provoking law enforcement officers.
The reaction of much of the public at the time was more protesters should have been shot. The protesters were not popular with the general public. They were reviled for their unlawful conduct.
The blame belongs on the immoral lawlessness of the protesters not the public reaction to it.
Duncy
The protesters did abuse veterans.
This is a well documented common story told by many veterans. As a youngster I do remember them being called baby killers.
The fact is protesters behaved lawlessly. You are entitled to your own opinions and not your own facts.
Lastly KKKultur
At least I know who my mother and father are. Apparently nobody wants
credit for producing the greatest village idiot in history.
Dopeland
Commies are not known for their courage. Picking on toddlers is about their speed.
In NYC on one of my first trips as a child I remember construction workers kicking commie protesters ass. The crowd cheered the construction workers and was quite pleased even in liberal NYC.
Of course commies forget how hated
the protesters were by the general
public.
How quickly we forget. Soldiers were in the front lines of resisting the war. No one in their right mind would have abused them. We thought the military resisters were heroes... Futhermore they weren't middle class pacifists in their resistance. Ever here of "fragging? A 1960's tradition that ought to be brought back...
Beakerkin:I also clearly remember as a very young child my flag being stolen by a hippie and burned. Yes peaceful hippie drug addicts who probably went years between baths stole a flag from a toddler.
I'm sure you have perfect clarity about toddlerhood.
If anything like that happened, it was because you taunted them.
Troutsky: Objectively humanity's evolution was from lower to higher overall. What's wrong with that?
As I grew up I needed little introduction to the evils of Commies. My grandfather and Uncle fought against the commies in 1920.
My grandparents were clearly familiar with the evils.
There were only four fascist leaders in all of history. Your family fought with them.
I also remember the reaction of my family to the shootings at Kent State. People were upset more protesters weren't shot. You can see these reactions in the NYT documentary on the subject.
Your family has fascist traits.
Larry G: What you said could be documented atleast.
Ren
And this "objective" evolution of mankind... can you describe it to me? In any thing but 'materialistic' terms?
Renegade Testicle
A four year old is not capable of that type of behavior. Responsible
adults do not steal and destroy items from four year olds.
Glad you are so worked up about taunting. As the protesters taunted the guardsmen before they were shot. I also would like to see your writings on people throwing rocks at armed people as in Gaza. Peaceful protests ends when rocks are thrown.
The Government of Poland circa 1920
is only described as fascist by commies who can not get over getting their clocks cleaned in the war. My family knew the evils of Marx and fought for Poland a country they did not love. They understood the inherent evils of Communism.
As for the reaction of my family it
was a common reaction at the time.
This is reflected in the NYT documentary of Kent State. Even the parents of many of the people shot thought more should have been
shot.
The thousands of ordinary NYC residents who cheered the construction workers beating commie
vermin were also very typical. America was fed up with law breaking by communist protesters who were reviled.
Try sitting in a movie theater when
the scene of Forrest Gump beating an obnoxious hippie was shown. The one I saw it in in liberal NYC got
plenty of applause.
As stated my family was thoroughly
American and had a deep and profound love for America and its values. They despised commies as
inherently evil and stupid. Planned
starvation, countless crimes against humanity, gulags, Killing Fields, terrorism, promotion of populist antisemitism and assorted
other mayhem proved them correct.
This topic was discussed many times
by Communist professors. The students who were my age quickly
brought up the fact that the protesters were hated.
The popular fiction of the time
around the late 80's showed the Vietnam Veteran as the hero in films and there were even TV series
reflecting it. One Professor was outraged by Tour of Duty and condemn it in Class. This led to
Tour of Duty parties by the students who would gather to watch it.
A slew of memorial went up around the country for the Vets. An outraged Tom Hayden wanted a memorial to the protesters and was
laughed at.
Moreover, I am amused by your ignorance of Fascism. Il Duce was a former Socialist who unlike Trotsky could write and govern.
Fascism is generally speaking not
a good idea. However, if you were to ditch your communism in favor
of Il Duce this would be a leap forward in your case.
The Anarchist switch hitter Larry Gamboner has advocated that soldiers commit a criminal act.
This type of comment is why anarchists are viewed as the rabid dogs of the political spectrum. At the proper time folks like Ren order a John Brown type ( Herman Marks) to do perform an Old Yeller types of solution to their stupidity.
Actually Ren there is a pamphlet written on resistance inside the US military. I have a copy of it, don't know where it is at the moment, but I think it was published by See Sharp Press.
I checked, it wasn't See Sharp. Can't remember who the publisher was. However, this will be of interest on the subject of resistance:
http://www.nlgmltf.org/giResistance/soldiers_veterans_bio.html
Still upset that your relatives were TKRP, eh Beak. I keep telling you there is no shame in that.
This is reflected in the NYT documentary of Kent State. Even the parents of many of the people shot thought more should have been
shot.
------------------------------
Unbelievable. This is the strain of real violence and hate, Beak. Hard to say where it comes from but it prevents you from being rational.
The parents of adolescents shot at a demonstration though there weren't enough kids shot. It boggles that you can be that screwed up.
Ducky
Watch the Discovery Times special on Kent State. The parents of people shot were upset more protesters were not shot. They were embarrassed that
their kids were there. Look at the footage and interviews done by the Bolshevik Times.
The Hard Hat Riot in NYC took place after the Kent State shooting. The construction workers were overwhelmingly supported by the public. The police did not want to intervene.
These are facts Ducky.
Communists are pariahs due to their record of unparalleled human rights atrocities. This is the reason you must make up labels and
front groups. The second Americans know that commies are involved it
is over.
You must deal with the fact that you are pariahs. You can't change the historical record and you are doomed to failure in each application.
Ditch Marx and follow another mad man Kultur. The Mazzola Manifesto
is superior to Marx
Here is what I found on parents saying more students should have been shot/killed at Kent.
Jim Russell (one of the wounded dtudents)
"After the events at Kent State, Jim Russell visited a friend for dinner. While they were eating, his father came home drunk and bellowed that the National Guardsmen should have shot more students at Kent State, including his own son."
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Khistory/60s/title.htm#shot
Don't you just love the shit that comes out of Beak's mouth; its worse than what comes from his ass! But what can we expect from an undersized, insecure boy who should still be living with mom!
Pilsudski was a weak fascist. According to Trotsky: The question “fascism or Bonapartism?” has engendered certain differences on the subject of the Pilsudski regime among our Polish comrades. The very possibility of such differences testifies best to the fact that we are dealing not with inflexible logical categories but with living social formations which represent extremely pronounced peculiarities in different countries and at different stages.
Pilsudski came to power at the end of an insurrection based upon a mass movement of the petty bourgeoisie and aimed directly at the domination of the traditional bourgeois parties in the name of the “strong state”; this is a fascist trait characteristic of the movement and of the regime. But the specific political weight, that is, the mass of Polish fascism was much weaker than that of Italian fascism in its time and still more than that of German fascism; to a much greater degree, Pilsudski had to make use of the methods of military conspiracy and to put the question of the workers’ organizations in a much more circumspect manner. It suffices to recall that Pilsudski’s coup d’état took place with the sympathy and the support of the Polish party of the Stalinists. The growing hostility of the Ukrainian and Jewish petty bourgeoisie towards the Pilsudski regime made it, in turn, more difficult for him to launch a general attack upon the working class.
As a result of such a situation, the oscillation between the classes and the national parts of the classes occupied and still occupies with Pilsudski a much greater place, and mass terror a much smaller place, than in the corresponding periods with Mussolini or Hitler; there is the Bonapartist element in the Pilsudski regime. Nevertheless, it would be patently false to compare Pilsudski to Giolitti or to Schleicher and to look forward to his being relieved by a new Polish Mussolini or Hitler. It is methodologically false to form an image of some “ideal” fascism and to oppose it to this real fascist regime which has grown up, with all its peculiarities and contradictions, upon the terrain of the relationship of classes and nationalities in the Polish state. Will Pilsudski be able to lead the action of destruction of the proletarian organizations to the very end? – and the logic of the situation drives him inevitably on this path – that does not depend upon the formal definition of “fascism as such,” but upon the true relationship of forces, the dynamics of the political processes taking place in the masses, the strategy of the proletarian vanguard, finally, the course of events in Western Europe and above all in France.
Mussolini stopped being a socialist in 1917. He organized The Black Shirts, to kill communists and anarchists.
In practice Italian fascism, and to lesser degree Hitler's Germany were Keynesian, a form of capitalism. Keynes even wrote himself, that Hitler's Germany is close to his ideal.
Lichanos
Just to be clear. Any individual who is comatose or perhaps is just sleeping at night, is not a person by your definition. Am I understanding your logic? So glad you took that course!
How do we find a symbol that makes it more difficult for reactionaries to use "socialism" as a big bogey man scare word?
@Kultur:
Am I understanding your logic?
No, you are not. This is an extremely tangled realm of ideas, and not one to be handled in comments to a blog post.
I would suggest, however, that being asleep is not the same as being unconscious - more like a different level of consciousness. A coma is about the lowest you could go.
A professor of mine, exasperated with my ideas of consciousness as a continuum, recommended a book to me about experiments with learning performed with protozoa! They are capable of "learning" new behaviors. When I told him I found the book fascinating, he practically threw up his hands in despair.
My point is that evolution, zoology, psychology, and neuroscience all indicate that consciousness is a state with many manifestations, from relatively primitve (birds?) to humans. Within humans it varies from birth to maturity (although for some outwardly normal adults, this appears to be in doubt) and from impaired to healthy. It is not an on-off condition. Conscious-Unconscious. Philosophers of mind are generally loathe to accept this, unless they are involved in integrating current brain research.
Similarly, the concept of person is not nearly so clear as we pretend. David Hume famously undermined it centuries ago. His arguments have not really been refuted by philosophers, and current science seems to support his views rather than deny them.
As I mentioned above, I don't see these questions as amenable to deductive analysis. That's the problem with philosophers of mind.
Renegade Spleen
A war criminal is not a valid source for evaluation of any government. The only people who make these absurd claims about the Polish government are Communist apologists.
My family was there and fought bravely for Poland. They did not like Poland and left at the first opportunity. You seem to be in a fog about how unpopular commies were with the locals. The Nazis were initially greeted as liberators and dismissing Hiwis as simple antisemites is an over simplification of a more complex situation.
KKKulture Clown
These sentiments were discussed in
the documentary. America was fed up
with the lawlessness of Communist
agitators. Public sentiment was with the National Guardsmen.
Plain and simple if you throw stones at people carrying guns you deserve to get shot. Sadly the people that were shot were too far away.
The troops were there because of the riots and arson largely instigated by commies. The arson and vandalism and throwing stones at the National guard is never mentioned by commies.
This was not peaceful protected free speech.
There is great irony in commies crying for "the pigs" and "capitalist exploiters" to save their worthless lives from actual
construction workers. The Hard Hat Riot speaks loudly and clearly about what actual American workers think of commies.
Beakerfullofshit, as a point of information - there were no "hard hat" riots in Canada. Labour here was opposed to the US aggression in Viet Nam. Does that make Canadian workers a bunch of commies?
Lichanos - I see where you are heading; I agree.
I also like your unyielding commitment to complexifying Lichanos ( a challenge in blog posts for sure) and in that spirit I renew my argument concerning trauma and what we are learning about PTSD. On your "continuum" every one handles trauma and stress differently as to what is suppressed, what is worked through, what is manifested "consciously" etc..
Many of us or our fathers or fathers fathers went to war, we experience differing levels of actual or imagined violence, just a whole range of experience that makes it difficult to say just what Vietnam or Kent State or Cuban Missile Crisis might have done to a collective psyche. I'm trying to be non judgemental yet explain dissociation.
From a review of Tom Tancredo's speech at the Teabaggers convention. BTW, "Teabagger in the urban vernacular means "a man who places his testicles on a woman's face>"
"Tancredo is unable to make a speech without taking a swipe at Hispanics in general and undocumented workers is particular. The failed presidential candidate claims that people who can't even say "vote" in English helped put Obama in the White House. This anti-Hispanic sentiment is rampant at teabagger shindigs, no wonder you won't find any Latinos at teabagger meetings."
I guess Beakerfullofshit needs to have his testicles removed!!
Here we go again with yours truly having to address the ignrantii. In order of lowest IQ first and having the lowest IQ is a seriously feat at this home of the misfits of special ed.
The switch hitting Larry Gambone. Please use your other avatar for aesthetic purposes. It makes your brand of ignorance and lack of social graces more bearable.
Why would there be Hard Hat Riots in Canada? It was US forces that were deployed abroad fighting a Cold War battle. Who cares what your labor thinks. In fact the opinions of rank and file on political matters frequently is not reflected in the opinions of its members. The views of Canadians on American Troop deployments are of zero consequence to Americans. The only opinion that is relevant on American affairs is that of the American people.
The fact is that Americans were fed up and disgusted by the criminal provocations of the communist protesters. Many were upset that more protesters were not shot. The majority applauded police and thought they were too restrained. The Hard Hat Riots were actual construction workers in liberal NYC who had enough of Communist lawlessness. The protesters were despised by the vast majority of Americans.
KKKultur.
You are quite ignorant as usual. I am familiar with that meaning of Tea Bag. It speaks more to your lack of social graces that you need to define the term. I am not bothered by your unhinged and ignorant reaction to a grass roots movement commies can not infiltrate.
Immigration is a complex issue and Tancredo ran on a single plank. In essence he was a one trick pony.
Voter fraud is a well documented issue that is almost entirely done from the left. People who are not citizens, who are deceased should not vote. People who live in multiple locations should vote once.
Anti illegal immigration does not infer anti Hispanic in anyone's mind but yours. The desire is to enforce existing laws and to fix a broken system.
As for bigotry your comments about Jooooos are proof that your opinions on bigotry might qualify you as an expert.
Then again the regular idiocy you write such as John Wayne Obama is proof of your developmentally disabled status or frequent bong hits.
Beakerfullofshit, If American people opposed to the Vietnam War were "commies", surely Canadians must have been "commies" too, since they also opposed the war?
Gamboner
The opinions of Canadians in a matter
of US foreign policy are irrelevant.
Like the USA the ignorantii are ensconced in media and government.
Who cares what people in Canada think about anything?
The protesters were overwhelmingly communist and very unpopular. Their lawlessness had provoked counter reactions. The war was not ended by the Protesters. It was ended by a media crucifixion of
President Nixon for Watergate. The Watergate matter was far less serious than the subsequent abuse of FBI files by the Clintons who were allowed to skate due their Bolshevik supporters in the media.
Beakerfullofshit, I am not talking about Canadian relevance to US foreign policy. I am talking about the logic of your arguments. If protesting the Vietnam war was "communist", then surely the Canadians who opposed the war were also "communist." And the fact that the majority of Canadians opposed the war makes Canada full of commies, no?
More lack of logic from Gamboner. Who decided that the majority of Canadians were against the Vietnam War much less were protesting? The leaders of the marches were almost always Communists and thus irrelevant.
You are an anarchist and as such are considered a clown by your fellow Canadians.
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